This is an excellent post, but if I may offer one critique, it would be that it doesn’t answer potential issues of change in population composition. Niklas’ comment mentions this to an extent, but, to be blunt, much of my motivation for worry about population decline and stagnation is a fear of current dysgenic trends, specifically in IQ. The negative correlation between measured IQ and fertility, both within countries and between them, underlies much natalist and transhumanist sentiment.
How can we “find out using evidence and reason how to do as much good as possible, and to apply that knowledge in practice" if some avenues to well-being are forbidden? The idea that no potential area is off limits is inherent in the mission. We must be open to doing whatever does the most good possible regardless of how it interacts with our pre-existing biases or taboos.
I think you have misread and misused the quote. It does not suggest following HBD to its "logical destination" (which in my mind evokes things like genocide and forced sterilization), it suggests that if EA were to accept different biological bases for observed phenomena, such as men disproportionately occupying positions of leadership, EA would then naturally progress to the idea that other observed phenomena (Asian and Jewish overrepresentation in cognitively demanding fields, for example) could be reflections of biological reality.
I think Jgray's comment addresses my other notion that your position on a topic being too toxic to even discuss in good faith perfectly fits Hanania's framework of the taboo.
Considering an EA group leader said that they would permanently ban anyone who brought up some of these topics, I am content in my choice of anonymity.
I generally agree that being palatable and well-funded are beneficial to effective altruism, and palatability and effectiveness exist on a utility curve. I do not know how we can accurately assess what cause areas should be of principle concern if certain avenues are closed due to respect for others' sacred cows. I think the quote from Scott Alexander addresses this nicely; if you could replicate Jewish achievement, whether culturally or genetically, doing so would be the single most significant development for human welfare in history. Regardless of taboos, that should be a cause area of principle concern, and would be if EA held such ideas to cost-benefit analyses instead of sacred beliefs. And as the lists of sacred beliefs grow, it further hampers other cause areas that would benefit from a rationalist mindset.
I treat posts based on their content rather than the author. I have no idea who different posters are, nor do I care much on issues unrelated to specific experience or expertise.
You are correct that my question was uncharitable and posted in frustration at a comment that I found detrimental to discussion. I should have said, and pose this as an open question:
I agree that applying cost-benefit analysis in a manner consistent with EA principles to areas like zoning, drug approval, and nuclear energy are good. I do not agree that increased credentialism or additional taboos are beneficial to the stated goals of EA, for the reasons outlined in the article.
I would ask that you state specifically what you find horrible, what cause areas should be exempt from cost-benefit analysis, and why? The current comment, as posted, does not contribute to meaningful discussion by way of its vagueness.
Could you expand on this? What do you find horrible about the ability to recreate the success of Ashekenazi Jews among different populations, for example?
Because disaster giving (in a fairly developed country, especially) is the antithesis of effective giving. These organizations, especially now, are not neglected, and are almost certainly not as cost effective as something like AMF. Disaster giving is the textbook example of philanthropy based on bias instead of cost effectiveness.
I want to adhere to forum norms and maintain a high quality in my posts, but this is tempting me to throw all that out the window. Of course, I will read a summary if one is provided, but going over these chapter titles, this book could just as well be a caricature of wokeness. Prioritizing Black Vegans? Queer Eye on the EA Guys? The celebratory quote complaining about white males getting it all wrong? Not to mention chapter 11 sounds seriously reminiscent of degrowthers. “Sure, alternative proteins ended factory farming, but they didn’t overthrow capitalism.”
My priors on this having any value to the goal of doing the most good are incredibly low.
I have been using a burner account recently as opposed to my account with my real name following the Bostrom controversy. That decision is not motivated by any fear of reprisal within EA communities; at my local EA group, I am perfectly happy to espouse the beliefs that I'd want anonymity for on here.
The reasons for doing so are as follows:
Potential Costs: EA seems to be under a microscope in the current landscape (See Bostrom, FTX, recent Time article on SA). This forum is not viewed only by people with beliefs in charitable understanding and respect for evidence-driven conclusions. If I say something "controversial" to an EA and provide sufficient evidence, I have much more confidence that, even if they disagree, they will be understanding of my thought process. I have no fear of social costs among EAs; not so with journalists trawling for someone to quote as a "eugenicist" or other pejorative. This and showing up as a Google result could have severe costs to my reputation and life outcomes.
Lack of Potential Benefits: Because of EAs high decoupling norms, I don't think that attaching my real name to posts provides much marginal value. In my experience and viewing others', people are judging the content of posts on their merits. I don't think my posts would receive significantly different attention, provided the content remained the same.
Unresolved Area of Potentially High Cost: The experience of discourse with a group of high-decouplers who grant charitable understanding to beliefs, such as I experience in my local EA group, is amazing, and I want more of it. I know that if I used my real name, posted more often and earnestly, I could cultivate a larger group for this kind of activity. I may benefit from adopting a consistent pseudonym across online profiles that would allow this sort of connection. However, I am, in my current position, unwilling to risk potential reputational damage outside EA circles.
In summation, I don't believe this is an EA problem. I believe it is a problem outside of EA from which the EA Forum cannot shelter its users.
This is an excellent post, but if I may offer one critique, it would be that it doesn’t answer potential issues of change in population composition. Niklas’ comment mentions this to an extent, but, to be blunt, much of my motivation for worry about population decline and stagnation is a fear of current dysgenic trends, specifically in IQ. The negative correlation between measured IQ and fertility, both within countries and between them, underlies much natalist and transhumanist sentiment.
How can we “find out using evidence and reason how to do as much good as possible, and to apply that knowledge in practice" if some avenues to well-being are forbidden? The idea that no potential area is off limits is inherent in the mission. We must be open to doing whatever does the most good possible regardless of how it interacts with our pre-existing biases or taboos.
I think you have misread and misused the quote. It does not suggest following HBD to its "logical destination" (which in my mind evokes things like genocide and forced sterilization), it suggests that if EA were to accept different biological bases for observed phenomena, such as men disproportionately occupying positions of leadership, EA would then naturally progress to the idea that other observed phenomena (Asian and Jewish overrepresentation in cognitively demanding fields, for example) could be reflections of biological reality.
I think Jgray's comment addresses my other notion that your position on a topic being too toxic to even discuss in good faith perfectly fits Hanania's framework of the taboo.
Considering an EA group leader said that they would permanently ban anyone who brought up some of these topics, I am content in my choice of anonymity.
I generally agree that being palatable and well-funded are beneficial to effective altruism, and palatability and effectiveness exist on a utility curve. I do not know how we can accurately assess what cause areas should be of principle concern if certain avenues are closed due to respect for others' sacred cows. I think the quote from Scott Alexander addresses this nicely; if you could replicate Jewish achievement, whether culturally or genetically, doing so would be the single most significant development for human welfare in history. Regardless of taboos, that should be a cause area of principle concern, and would be if EA held such ideas to cost-benefit analyses instead of sacred beliefs. And as the lists of sacred beliefs grow, it further hampers other cause areas that would benefit from a rationalist mindset.
I treat posts based on their content rather than the author. I have no idea who different posters are, nor do I care much on issues unrelated to specific experience or expertise.
You are correct that my question was uncharitable and posted in frustration at a comment that I found detrimental to discussion. I should have said, and pose this as an open question:
I agree that applying cost-benefit analysis in a manner consistent with EA principles to areas like zoning, drug approval, and nuclear energy are good. I do not agree that increased credentialism or additional taboos are beneficial to the stated goals of EA, for the reasons outlined in the article.
I would ask that you state specifically what you find horrible, what cause areas should be exempt from cost-benefit analysis, and why? The current comment, as posted, does not contribute to meaningful discussion by way of its vagueness.
Could you expand on this? What do you find horrible about the ability to recreate the success of Ashekenazi Jews among different populations, for example?
Because disaster giving (in a fairly developed country, especially) is the antithesis of effective giving. These organizations, especially now, are not neglected, and are almost certainly not as cost effective as something like AMF. Disaster giving is the textbook example of philanthropy based on bias instead of cost effectiveness.
I want to adhere to forum norms and maintain a high quality in my posts, but this is tempting me to throw all that out the window. Of course, I will read a summary if one is provided, but going over these chapter titles, this book could just as well be a caricature of wokeness. Prioritizing Black Vegans? Queer Eye on the EA Guys? The celebratory quote complaining about white males getting it all wrong? Not to mention chapter 11 sounds seriously reminiscent of degrowthers. “Sure, alternative proteins ended factory farming, but they didn’t overthrow capitalism.”
My priors on this having any value to the goal of doing the most good are incredibly low.
I have been using a burner account recently as opposed to my account with my real name following the Bostrom controversy. That decision is not motivated by any fear of reprisal within EA communities; at my local EA group, I am perfectly happy to espouse the beliefs that I'd want anonymity for on here.
The reasons for doing so are as follows:
Potential Costs: EA seems to be under a microscope in the current landscape (See Bostrom, FTX, recent Time article on SA). This forum is not viewed only by people with beliefs in charitable understanding and respect for evidence-driven conclusions. If I say something "controversial" to an EA and provide sufficient evidence, I have much more confidence that, even if they disagree, they will be understanding of my thought process. I have no fear of social costs among EAs; not so with journalists trawling for someone to quote as a "eugenicist" or other pejorative. This and showing up as a Google result could have severe costs to my reputation and life outcomes.
Lack of Potential Benefits: Because of EAs high decoupling norms, I don't think that attaching my real name to posts provides much marginal value. In my experience and viewing others', people are judging the content of posts on their merits. I don't think my posts would receive significantly different attention, provided the content remained the same.
Unresolved Area of Potentially High Cost: The experience of discourse with a group of high-decouplers who grant charitable understanding to beliefs, such as I experience in my local EA group, is amazing, and I want more of it. I know that if I used my real name, posted more often and earnestly, I could cultivate a larger group for this kind of activity. I may benefit from adopting a consistent pseudonym across online profiles that would allow this sort of connection. However, I am, in my current position, unwilling to risk potential reputational damage outside EA circles.
In summation, I don't believe this is an EA problem. I believe it is a problem outside of EA from which the EA Forum cannot shelter its users.