I totally agree with the gist of your comment t but as far as gendered differences go physical strength/size is almost certainly larger than differences in sex drive. That absolutely implies the probability a woman feels physically threatened by a man is much, much higher than the probability a man feels physically threatened by a woman.
You're absolutely right, I missed that poll. Thanks for pointing it out.
It has very hedged language: "strongly recommend considering refraining" which might technically make the poll totally silly but I imagine people voted on the view the poll was representing (I mean, technically who would vote against just 'considering' something?).
I don't know how to initiate polls. Would love to see one broken down by gender and self-reported "status" in addition to the equivalent recommendation with gender-neutral language. It takes two for each instance of "sleeping around" after all.
I think everyone agrees OCB overstepped (he's admitted as much) and people are of different opinion on how much blood they're after.
This, along with the time article, are seen as proof of a "problem" that needs a "solution."
This thread offers a potential solution. It asks the question: would you be willing to enforce a taboo against (most?) heterosexual relationships in the community in order to almost totally eliminate sexual misconduct?
The overwhelming response is a resounding no. It doesn't appeal to anyone. Totally throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
There's a continuum: uncomfortable/awkward, inappropriate (misconduct), harassment, assault .
In the US at least, assault is criminal so that's the bare minimum amount of enforcement and done at the federal/legal level. OCB was accused of something between misconduct and harassments I think. I think everyone agrees that harassment and assault is bad. We would like to eliminate all misconduct but what is and isn't appropriate really becomes subjective quick. And as we've seen from this thread there is no appetite to project people from the merely uncomfortable.
So I don't think there is any "solution" because this isn't a problem that can be "solved." Yes, we can always "do better" because the issue can never really 100% go away. The conversation should revolve around what the community's preferred trade-offs are.
I'm sure some people find hot tubs a bit awkward and I'm sure most people (at least outside of EA) would find "cuddle puddles" a little strange. You'll never be able to please everyone, you gotta just live your life.
"Subtle harms" sounds like an escalation from "awkwardness or uncomfortability" but if we're talking about consensual adults acting in good faith I'd say these "subtle harms" are an inescapable consequence of normal social interaction.
It's certainly true that "Failed attempts at sleeping with someone can often lead to awkwardness or uncomfortability." However, this is also true of successful attempts. "No attempts" isn't a reasonable solution.
If there is a taboo the EA community would benefit from breaking it's the notion that something being awkward/uncomfortable is evidence, in and of itself, that something that has transpired is bad, or someone did something wrong. Well intentioned people acting in good faith can often lead to awkward situations even when nobody did anything explicitly wrong.
There's obviously a continuum of behaviors from very benign to potentially very serious, it's very difficult to escape nuance in these cases. Life isn't always so simple.
I totally agree with the gist of your comment t but as far as gendered differences go physical strength/size is almost certainly larger than differences in sex drive. That absolutely implies the probability a woman feels physically threatened by a man is much, much higher than the probability a man feels physically threatened by a woman.
I think the best way to think about it is that the typical male's sexual desire is axiomatic.
You're absolutely right, I missed that poll. Thanks for pointing it out.
It has very hedged language: "strongly recommend considering refraining" which might technically make the poll totally silly but I imagine people voted on the view the poll was representing (I mean, technically who would vote against just 'considering' something?).
I don't know how to initiate polls. Would love to see one broken down by gender and self-reported "status" in addition to the equivalent recommendation with gender-neutral language. It takes two for each instance of "sleeping around" after all.
I think everyone agrees OCB overstepped (he's admitted as much) and people are of different opinion on how much blood they're after.
This, along with the time article, are seen as proof of a "problem" that needs a "solution."
This thread offers a potential solution. It asks the question: would you be willing to enforce a taboo against (most?) heterosexual relationships in the community in order to almost totally eliminate sexual misconduct?
The overwhelming response is a resounding no. It doesn't appeal to anyone. Totally throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
There's a continuum: uncomfortable/awkward, inappropriate (misconduct), harassment, assault .
In the US at least, assault is criminal so that's the bare minimum amount of enforcement and done at the federal/legal level. OCB was accused of something between misconduct and harassments I think. I think everyone agrees that harassment and assault is bad. We would like to eliminate all misconduct but what is and isn't appropriate really becomes subjective quick. And as we've seen from this thread there is no appetite to project people from the merely uncomfortable.
So I don't think there is any "solution" because this isn't a problem that can be "solved." Yes, we can always "do better" because the issue can never really 100% go away. The conversation should revolve around what the community's preferred trade-offs are.
I'm sure some people find hot tubs a bit awkward and I'm sure most people (at least outside of EA) would find "cuddle puddles" a little strange. You'll never be able to please everyone, you gotta just live your life.
we gatekeeping romantic attraction now?
I agree with your points on poly culture. However, I find the suggestion that guys need "a good reason" to hit on women a bit bizarre.
meta af
"Subtle harms" sounds like an escalation from "awkwardness or uncomfortability" but if we're talking about consensual adults acting in good faith I'd say these "subtle harms" are an inescapable consequence of normal social interaction.
It's certainly true that "Failed attempts at sleeping with someone can often lead to awkwardness or uncomfortability." However, this is also true of successful attempts. "No attempts" isn't a reasonable solution.
If there is a taboo the EA community would benefit from breaking it's the notion that something being awkward/uncomfortable is evidence, in and of itself, that something that has transpired is bad, or someone did something wrong. Well intentioned people acting in good faith can often lead to awkward situations even when nobody did anything explicitly wrong.
There's obviously a continuum of behaviors from very benign to potentially very serious, it's very difficult to escape nuance in these cases. Life isn't always so simple.