Just a prompt to say that if you've been kicking around an idea of possible relevance to the essay competition on the automation of wisdom and philosophy, now might be the moment to consider writing it up -- entries are due in three weeks.
Totally agree that people can do whatever they want!
But: suppose there were a big online discussion about the clothing choices of a public intellectual (and while slightly quirky and not super flattering, these obviously weren't being chosen for the sake of being provocative). Then I think I'd feel like I cared about their privacy, and that it would be kinder for people to refrain from this discussion. Not that they wouldn't have a right to have it -- but that it might ultimately be more aligned with their values not to (even if they're totally right about the clothes).
I feel kind of similarly here. Manifest made some choices. They seem to me like they may have been mistakes, but it's important to me that they have the right to make their own choices (whether or not those are mistakes). Some of the discourse feels like it's an ungraceful attempt to muscle in on their autonomy -- like the vibe is "you shouldn't have had the right to invite him", even if people don't actually say that -- and thereby more likely to create an environment where people don't actually feel free. (Not all of the criticism has felt to me like that. I actually support a certain amount of tactfully-done criticism in this case. And I've upvoted a number of contributions on both "sides" of this debate, where I felt like they were adding something useful.)
(It's more plausible that Manifest's choices are causing indirect harm than that the intellectual's clothing choices are, so this analogy isn't perfect, and I'm not trying to say it's as clear-cut as that case, and it's possible this value could be outweighed by other values, which is why I'm in favour of some of the criticism. But I do think it's not a "non-argument", and I'm giving an analogy where I think it's clearer cut in order to demonstrate that it's at least a legitimate consideration.)
I agree that Manifest was platforming him.
(I wouldn't have done that, and at some level I feel sad that they did it -- but I think that is a bit norm violating to express publicly, and I'm trying to do it softly and only because it may help to avoid misunderstanding.)
However, I think Manifest has the right to choose who to platform just as people have the right to choose who to talk to. I do think this platforming decision is something Manifest's natural constituents can rightfully complain about, but I think it's kind of inappropriate for the EA forum at large to weigh in on. (Though I support people's right to be inappropriate this way! I just would try not to do it myself and might gently advise other people to try not to.)
As an observer to these discussions, a couple of comments:
I'm confused about what you're saying here. It feels like maybe you're conflating OP with GV? (Which may be functionally a reasonable approximation 99% of the time, but gets in the way of the point of the conversation here in the 1%.) e.g. at one point you say "better if OP doesn't have to spend its own money", but as far as I understand things, to a first approximation Open Philanthropy doesn't have any money; rather, Good Ventures does.
I want to express a few things.
First, empathy, for:
Second, a little local disappointment in OP. At some point in the past it seemed to me like OP was trying pretty hard to be very straightforward and honest. I no longer get that vibe from OP's public comms; they seem more like they're being carefully crafted for something like looking-good or being-defensible while only saying true things. Of course I don’t know all the constraints they’re under so I can’t be sure this is a mistake. But I personally feel a bit sad about it — I think it makes it harder for people to make useful updates from things OP says, which is awkward because I think a bunch of people kind of look to OP for leadership. I don’t think anything is crucially wrong here, but I’m worried about people missing the upside from franker communication, and I wanted to mention it publicly so others could express (dis)agreement and make it easier for everyone to get a sense of the temperature of the room. (I also get this vibe a little from the GV statement, especially in not discussing which areas they’re dropping, but it doesn’t matter so much since people less look to them for leadership; and I don't get this vibe from Dustin's comments on this thread, which seem to me to be straightforward and helpful.)
Third, some optimism. When I first heard this news I felt like things were somehow going wrong. Having read Dustin’s elaborations I more feel like this is a step towards things working as they should[1]. Over the last few years I’ve deepened my belief in the value of doing things properly. And it feels proper for things to be supported by people who wholeheartedly believe in the things (and if PR or other tangles make people feel it’s headachey to support an area, that can be a legitimate impediment to wholeheartedness). I think that if GV retreats from funding some areas, the best things there are likely to attract funding from people who more believe in them, and that feels healthy and good. (I also have some nervousness that some great projects will get hurt in the process of shaking things out; I don’t really have a view on Habryka’s claim that the implementation is bad.)
Fourth, a sense that perhaps there was a better path here? (This is very speculative.) It seems like a decent part of what Dustin is saying is that each different funding area brings additional bandwidth costs for the funder (e.g. necessity to think about the shape of the field being crafted; and about possible missteps that warrant funder responses). That makes sense. But then the puzzle is: given that so much of funding work is successfully outsourced to OP, why is it not working to outsource these costs too? If I imagine myself in Cari and Dustin’s shoes, and query my internal sense of why that doesn’t work, I get:
That might be off, but it is sparking thoughts about the puzzle of wanting people to take ownership of things without being controlling, and how to get that. From a distance, it seems like there’s some good chance there might have been a relationship GV and OP could have settled into that they’d have been mutually happier with than the status quo (maybe via OP investing more in trying to be good agents of Cari and Dustin, and less backing their own views about what’s good?); although navigating to anything like that seems delicate, so even if I’m right I’m not trying to ascribe blame here.
Fifth, thoughts on implications for other donors:
That is, given what I understand of Cari and Dustin’s views, it seems proper for them not to support these things. I’m not here taking a view on which parts of the object level they’re correct on.
Thanks, I think there's a real question here about how effective this work can be. Although note that in the pandemic case you're mostly hoping to get behaviour change from the general population, while in the nuclear war case you're mostly hoping to get behaviour change from a small number of key decision-makers (who I think are typically more likely to be somewhat receptive to arguments).
My guess is that the crux between people disagreeing is typically closer to: "is this mostly a question of managing the details of how someone else ran an event, or is this mostly a question of appropriate social signalling?"