Hide table of contents

I've always thought of myself as even-keeled and equanimous; that my mind is still. In hindsight, I had no idea what I was talking about. Halfway through my second ten-day meditation retreat, I experienced a depth of equanimity that broke my existing frame of reference.

It’s hard to convey in words. My reflection afterwards was something like “What the fuck was that?” More poetically: it felt deep and dark, like my entire experience was submerged in a deep sea trench.

Two things about this experience seem worth taking seriously. The first is that equanimity, felt from the inside, doesn't sit neatly on the scale I'd previously used to think about good and bad experiences. The second is stranger: from inside the state, certain questions I'd taken for granted about how to act well in the world stopped quite working.

Equanimity and axiology

The closest thing in the EA-adjacent literature to what I'm describing is probably Lukas Gloor's tranquilism, which notably also is inspired by Buddhist sources. It's a partial axiological theory that roughly says well-being is freedom from cravings. This contrasts with classical hedonism, where experiences fall on an axis from suffering through neutral to pleasure, and the goal is to maximize the positive side. For tranquilism, the implication is that states of deep contentment without pleasure can be just as valuable as states of intense bliss. Pleasure matters only instrumentally, insofar as it indicates less craving, or displaces it.

In light of my own experience, there is a lot that tranquilism seems to get right:

Craving seems like a large part of what makes some experiences “bad” or turns pain into suffering. Equanimity wasn’t just a feeling alongside other feelings. It changed the entire field of experience, and how other feelings showed up in it: It was somehow okay that there was pain in my back. Joy arose and passed without me getting involved in it.

The equanimous state didn't seem to fit the standard pleasure/suffering axis. By that point in the retreat I'd already experienced bliss, joy, and other fun states. Equanimity was different in kind: somehow more refined, more real, and unmistakably preferable, but not by being more positive in the same direction.

Equanimity and emptiness seem comparable in some sense. Inside the state, there's no felt urge to propagate it, and there’s no feeling of loss when it ends. Where bliss or joy shout “more please,” equanimity has a subtle draw that made me go on retreat a second time but didn’t have me cling to it. 

I think classical hedonism has a harder time making sense of this. You could try to handle it by saying equanimity is just an unusual kind of pleasure, but you'd then expect a state preferable to bliss to generate exactly the propagate-this-everywhere intuitions that bliss generates. It didn't.

Equanimity and consequentialism

For all that it gets right, tranquilism stays in a frame of “what is the good and how can we maximize it.” Let’s do consequentialism, population ethics, effective altruism, but with a tranquilist axiology. Let’s answer questions like whether a fully content experience is of the same value as unconsciousness. And I can see how this approach makes sense from the outside. You treat it as an empirical debate about what the most or least valuable states of consciousness are, and, as I’ve sketched above, the experience of equanimity has something to say about this.

But there is a deeper thing going on, too. Equanimity came with a sense that — maybe for the first time ever — nothing needs to change. This experience is perfect as it is.

Now, to be fair, I wasn’t exactly having a bad time. I was well-fed, warm, and relaxed. But at one point during the meditation, my mind conjured images of all my friends dying horribly. I didn't experience this as bad or painful; I was merely witnessing it.

This gave me a taste of a different relationship to the world and all of its horrors and tragedies; one in which these things exist but there isn’t a reflex to change them, to fix anything.

Deep down consequentialism is a judgmental philosophy that evaluates world states as better or worse. Equanimity, on the other hand, strikes me as a deeply non-judgmental space where this activity does not seem to make much sense.

Equanimity and epistemology

Stepping back, how seriously should I take any of this? Now look, I know what this seems like: just another guy two-shotted by meditation retreats. There are strange experiences aplenty, and it’s super unclear what epistemic force they ought to have. People on psychedelic trips often report seeing a deeper truth, and sometimes that coincides with them talking to imaginary trees. I don’t personally give those reports a lot of weight, but what about mine?

The phenomenological claims stand on solid ground for me: These states appear flawless. They seem preferable to pleasure. It’s possible to experience pain without the associated suffering. There can be deep acceptance of the way things are. They don’t generate any wish to propagate themselves. The experience just is the way it is, and I would trust similar claims about somebody’s experience on a psychedelic trip.

It’s harder to say what weight the implications carry. As a data point about what’s valuable in the world, I do give them significant weight. It seems hard to be confused about the valence of an experience, and from the little that I have looked into this, other more seasoned meditators report similar preferences.

More confusing to me is the different stance it seems to induce toward maximization and consequentialism. Is this the more appropriate stance compared to the one I inhabit in everyday life? I’m not sure how I could even tell. From inside the experience, it certainly seems like the view is more clear-eyed. If there is a point of view of the universe (whatever that means), it does feel closer to it. How much to trust this, I don’t know. It could be that everyday consciousness is distorted by craving and attachment, or it could be that those attachments are what make us human in the first place.

What I can say is this: When I introspect now, I still have the wish for more beings to experience equanimity and to be free from suffering. I still have the sense of "I want to apply myself skillfully to that task," with its kind of maximization flavor. But the project feels less tight than it did before. And from what I hear, it’s possible to go further down this road with more meditation practice. Importantly, though, that still doesn’t answer whether this would be deepening wisdom or confusion. One person’s growth is another one’s value drift.

82

0
0
3

Reactions

0
0
3

More posts like this

Comments12
Sorted by Click to highlight new comments since:

A (speculative) thought I hadn't had before:

In humans, as you beautifully note, there's a distinction between the conscious states that are most pleasurable (e.g. equanimity) and the states that most motivating, and most want to propagate themselves (e.g. compulsions).

Maybe this is a quite general fact about conscious states. And maybe, among post-human and non-human minds, just as the peaks of bliss might be far higher than the best experiences we can feel today, the strength of self-propagation might be far greater, too. A future being, trying to explore the landscape of experiences, might enter into one of those super-self-propagating states, and then be lost inside of it forever.

If so, then we're more likely to get a future that consists mainly of the self-propagating conscious states, rather than the actually-best conscious states - and thereby lose out on most possible value.

Thanks for sharing! I think you might enjoy in this conversation with Roger Thisdell about classical enlightenment and valence structuralism, which touches on some of the points you raise. (You probably also saw Scott Alexander's In What Sense Is Life Suffering?)

Deep down consequentialism is a judgmental philosophy that evaluates world states as better or worse. 

It's going to be interesting to see how the field of ethics (esp. population ethics) evolves as philosophers take phenomenology more seriously (in particular exotic states, many of which Buddhists have explored and described in excruciating detail for centuries), not to mention things like open individualism or mixed valence.

I interviewed someone who's always been in a state of equanimity (M.E. Thomas) and Daniel Ingram, who knows it well.

I'm currently working on an article where I go more into the ins and outs of no-self states. I feel like they're an interesting tool, but they also come with drawbacks. M.E. Thomas cites decision paralysis, worse retrospective memory, worse prospective memory, harder time relating to others, no way to act in ways that are not manipulative of the person “themselves” or “others,” etc. She's writing a book about it too.

Personally, I spent 2025 in a state that felt very equanimous, though it was surely not as deep as your state. I loved it, but I also love being driven. So toward the end of the year, I started cultivating more A&P-like feelings, and I'm enjoying that too now and feel a lot more driven again. I might still go back, but from my A&Pish perspective, equanimity doesn't sound super convincing. I suppose that's a disadvantage because if equanimity doesn't care about equanimity, it retains a lot of option value that the A&P invests.

I think you might find it interesting to talk to someone from the Tibetan Buddhism tradition or a non-dual tradition like the thai forest tradition.

No-self is completely different there. There are different kinds of practices with different outcomes, the Burmese tradition which Ingram practiced is one of many.

You're already perfect but you could be a little better. If there's no thing which is fully real to harm you then there are a lot more things that you can do in the name of loving kindness.

Interesting! I asked Gemini about your comment, and after a few rounds of dialog we arrived at the following state. (Gemini wrote it from my first person perspective and I'm too lazy to swap out the pronouns now.) Does that make sense to you? Is it what you were referring to?

The Traditions: Different Flavors of No-Self

As you mentioned, the paths map out very differently:

  • The Deconstructive No-Self (Burmese Vipassana / Pragmatic Dharma): This is the tradition Daniel Ingram operates in. It relies on hyper-focused, microscopic analysis of sensory experience. The illusion of a continuous "self" drops away because reality is seen as a rapid-fire sequence of fleeting sensory fragments. Because it is highly analytical, the resulting state can sometimes feel very detached or dry.
  • The Luminous No-Self (Tibetan Dzogchen & Mahamudra): Instead of dissecting reality, these practices focus on resting in the natural, spacious awareness of the mind. When the rigid ego drops away, what is left is a vast, vibrant, intimately connected awareness. Here, you don't lose your drive; the source of your drive simply shifts to spontaneous compassion (Bodhicitta).
  • The Original Mind No-Self (Thai Forest Tradition): Practitioners focus on letting go of "defilements" and everything we usually identify with. When you let go of all of that, you uncover the Citta—the purified heart/mind—which is a radiant, deeply grounded presence, avoiding the hyper-analytical traps of the deconstructive path.

The Psychological Framework: The PNSE Continuum

Modern research actually bridges the gap between these ancient maps and the varying experiences people have today. Jeffery Martin’s studies on Persistent Non-Symbolic Experience (PNSE) found that "enlightenment" or awakened states operate on a continuum with different "Locations." This perfectly explains the gap between my experience and M.E. Thomas’s.

M.E. Thomas and Location 4:

Martin found that the symptoms M.E. Thomas describes—decision paralysis, lack of prospective/retrospective memory, and a loss of the sense of agency—are common among practitioners in what he calls "Location 4." In this furthest extreme, emotion, agency, and memory hooks drop away completely. Her navigation of the world in that state is highly relatable if you view it through a different lens: it’s akin to how one feels about copyediting. You don't feel emotional empathy for a misspelled word; you just correct it because there is a sort of aesthetic itch to do so. It is a functional, frictionless engagement with reality, stripped of emotional turbulence.

My Experience and Locations 2/3 (Stream Entry):

My experience, which happened spontaneously rather than through intensive concentration practices, maps beautifully onto Martin's Locations 2 and 3. In these middle locations, practitioners experience an unshakable sense of well-being. The cognitive friction—the ego pushing away reality—is gone, meaning the bleakness of the world doesn't penetrate the baseline mood. It is also characterized by a surge in positive emotion and profound present-moment compassion. (This aligns with my awakened friend's suggestion that this was a spontaneous "Stream Entry"—a sudden dropping of the visceral belief in a separate, permanent self, which releases a massive amount of psychological energy and natural compassion).

Compassion, Hustle, and the Return to the A&P

This framework also explains the shift in motivation I experienced. During that year, 1:1 interactions felt highly motivating, and I helped a lot of people. But the hustle to build up societal status for wide-ranging, systemic changes was entirely absent.

This makes perfect psychological sense. 1:1 compassion is an immediate, spontaneous response to the present moment. It requires no complex timeline and is deeply compatible with a state of "no-self." Conversely, leveraging societal status for systemic change requires a massive amount of "self-ing." It requires maintaining a continuous mental narrative about who you are, what the future holds, and how to manipulate abstract variables years down the line. When the self-referential narrative quiets down, the cognitive machinery required to sustain a 10-year egoic "hustle" is no longer running the show.

Ultimately, my shift back toward A&P-like feelings wasn't a blind urge. Rather, it arose out of compassion for a part of myself that sought deeper fulfillment. The A&P state provides the fuel, the narrative, and the future-orientation required to build status and engage with those larger, systemic goals. While the equanimous state is wonderful for immediate, frictionless living, I found that allowing some of that driven, narrative energy back in allowed for a richer sense of fulfillment in the long game.

Yeah, this makes sense to me.

My teacher from the thai forest tradition has a nice quote on this which I like. "Don't poopoo the mind"

But a pointing out instruction here for you might be something like: "is it true that you are yourself when you're self-ing?"

Who is it really who is having the experience?

There is in fact not a self nor a non-self to start with for that presumes that there is a self to relate to (emptiness of emptiness). There is no ground for reality to stand on, groundlessness...

Yada yada yada...

The tldr is that meditation can be a way for you to deeply anchor you to your emotions and that it can be a way of acting from a place that is more alive and agentic.

A deeper, rawer, and vibrant state of acting where there is so much more you can do and where the self that is effective in the world can know that peace is accessible at any point.

Hopefully that made some sense?

A confusing thing about my experience is that the truth of the no-self state is intellectually ineluctable to me and yet my perception is still filtered by selfhood. Sometimes I get a burst of spite-fueled energy that almost collapses into fatalism, and I remind myself that I chose this, that I can just go back if I don't like it, but that I want to keep reading this chapter of my life, as it were, because it's exciting! But even when I introspect, there's a perspective there – someone has called it the watcher?

Where bliss or joy shout “more please,” equanimity has a subtle draw that made me go on retreat a second time but didn’t have me cling to it. 

Interestingly, I think the "more please" or craving is dissociable from pleasure, even if not in typical cases. From my piece Pleasure and suffering are not conceptual opposites:

 

Pleasure and unpleasantness need not involve desire, at least conceptually, and it seems pleasure at least does not require desire in humans. Desire, as motivational salience, depends on brain mechanisms in animals distinct from those for pleasure, and which can be separately manipulated (Berridge, 2018, Nguyen et al., 2021, Berridge & Dayan, 2021), including by reducing desire (incentive salience) without also reducing drug-induced euphoria (Leyton et al., 2007, Brauer & H De Wit, 1997). Berridge and Kringelbach (2015) summarize the last two studies as follows:

human subjective ratings of drug pleasure (e.g., cocaine) are not reduced by pharmacological disruption of dopamine systems, even when dopamine suppression does reduce wanting ratings (Brauer and De Wit, 1997, Leyton et al., 2007)

On the other hand, in humans and other animals, the aversive salience of physical pain may not be empirically separable from its unpleasantness (Shriver, 2014), but as far as I can tell, the issue is not settled.

Interesting angle, thank you for sharing this. I also sat a second 10-day retreat this spring and find equanimity preferable to chasing bliss for its own sake. I also note that bliss need not always generate a 'propagate-this-everywhere intuition' because at least it doesn't do so in my case. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

On this part:

Deep down consequentialism is a judgmental philosophy that evaluates world states as better or worse. Equanimity, on the other hand, strikes me as a deeply non-judgmental space where this activity does not seem to make much sense.

@Michael St Jules 🔸 this reminds me of your seeking views that would be more rooted in radical empathy and avoid paternalism toward all beings, and I'd be curious how you relate to the quote. :)

Hmm, the view in my sequence Radical empathy is consequentialist-compatible and judgemental, but is designed to judge exactly as others judge, on their behalf.

I just came back from my first retreat and (due to unlucky events) had a pretty negative outcome. This gave me back some hope that there is something actually good out there for me yet. Thank you. Quality timing.

Both equanimity and the intense wanting for relief of all beings can be true at the same time.

Dzogchen for example is all about bringing equanimity into daily experiences so that you can act from a state of peaceful existence even in something like an argument.

For me being open induces a sense of loving everything in the world and from that state a deep sense of wanting to act is born.

Curated and popular this week
Relevant opportunities