What’s a realistic, positive vision of the future worth fighting for?
I feel lost when it comes how to do altruism lately. I keep starting and dropping various little projects. I think the problem is that I just don't have a grand vision of the future I am trying to contribute to. There are so many different problems and uncertainty about what the future will look like. Thinking about the world in terms of problems just leads to despair for me lately. As if humanity is continuously not living up to my expectations. Trump's victory, the war in Ukraine, increasing scale of factory farming, lack of hope on AI. Maybe insects suffer too, which would just create more problems. My expectations for humanity were too high and I am mourning that but I don't know what's on the other side. There are so many things that I don't want to happen, that I've lost the sight of what I do want to happen. I don't want to be motivated solely by fear. I want some sort of a realistic positive vision for the future that I could fight for. Can anyone recommend something on that? Preferably something that would take less than 30 minutes to watch or read. It can be about animal advocacy, AI, or global politics.
I think the problem is that I just don't have a grand vision of the future I am trying to contribute to.
For what it's worth, I'm skeptical of approaches that try to design the perfect future from first principles and make it happen. I'm much more optimistic about marginal improvements that try to mitigate specific problems (e.g. eradicating smallpox didn't cure all illness.)
How much we can help doesn't depend on how awful or how great the world is, we can save the drowning child whether there's a billion more that are drowning or a billion more that are thriving. To the drowning child the drowning is just as real, as is our opportunity to help.
If you feel emotionally down and unable to complete projects, I would encourage to try things that work on priors (therapy, exercise, diet, sleep, making sure you have healthy relationships) instead of "EA specific" things.
There are plenty of lives we can help no matter who won the US election and whether factory farming keeps getting worse, their lives are worth it to them, no matter what the future will be.
I think the sort of world that could be achieved by the massive funding of effective charities is a rather inspiring vision. Natalie Cargill, Longview Philanthropy's CEO, lays out a rather amazing set of outcomes that could be achieved in her TED Talk.
I think that a realistic method of achieving these levels of funding are Profit for Good businesses, as I lay out in my TEDx Talk. I think it is realistic because most people don't want to give something up to fund charities -as donation would require- but if they could help solve world problems by buying products or services they want or need of similar quality at the same price, they would.
I was thinking on ways to reduce political polarization and thought about AI chatbots like Talkie. Imagine an app where you could engage with a chatbot representing someone with opposing beliefs. For example:
Each chatbot would explain how they arrived at their beliefs, share relatable backstories, and answer questions. This kind of interaction could offer a low-risk, controlled environment for understanding diverse political perspectives, potentially breaking the echo chambers reinforced by social media. AI-based interactions might appeal to people who find real-life debates intimidating or confrontational, helping to demystify the beliefs of others.
The app could perhaps include a points system for engaging with different viewpoints, quizzes to test understanding, and start conversations in engaging, fictional scenarios. Chatbots should ideally be created in collaboration with people who hold these actual views, ensuring authentici... (read more)
People already use chatbots and they will become much better. I imagine they eventually will also incorporate audio and video better, it will be like talking to a real person, very engaging. I want that technology to be used for good.
EAG and covid [edit: solved, I'm not attending the EAG (I'm still testing positive as of Saturday)]
I have many meetings planned for the EAG London that starts tomorrow but I’m currently testing very faintly positive for covid. I feel totally good. I’m looking for a bit of advice on what to do. I only care to do what’s best for altruistic impact. Some of my meetings are important for my current project and trying to schedule them online would delay and complicate some things a little bit. I will also need to use my laptop during meetings to take notes. I first tested positive on Monday evening, and since then all my tests were very faintly positive. No symptoms. I guess my options are roughly:
In terms of advice from the EA Global team we don’t have a strict policy on covid and you can use your best judgement. You may wish to test/mask.
I (Iz) would personally ask that you inform your 1:1 meeting partners and that you aren't unmasked inside whilst still testing positive.
Thanks,
Iz
Most Wild Animal Welfare (WAW) researchers I talked to thought that we are unlikely to find WAW interventions that would be directly competitive with farmed animal welfare interventions in terms of direct short-term cost-effectiveness. After spending some months trying to find such interventions myself, I tentatively agree. In this text, I will try to explain why.
I spent some months trying to find a WAW intervention that is:
The first step in the process was listing all potential interventions. Even though many people contributed to it, I found this list to be underwhelming (unfortunately, I don’t think I can share the list without asking for permission from everyone who contributed to it). I feel that coming up with plausible interventions for farmed animals is much ea... (read more)
I’d be grateful if some people could fill this survey https://forms.gle/RdQfJLs4a5jd7KsQA The survey will ask you to compare different intensities of pain. In case you're interested why you might want to do it, you’ll be helping me to estimate plausible weights for different categories of pain used by the Welfare Footprint Project. This will help me with to summarise their conclusions into easily digestible statements like “switch from battery cage to cage-free reduces suffering of hens by at least 60%” and with some cost-effectiveness estimates. Thanks ❤️
Research grants with outcome-based payouts
If I 1) had savings that cover over a year of my living expenses, 2) wasn’t already employed at an EA think tank, and 3) wanted to do EA research independently, I would probably apply to EA funds to do research on unspecified topics (if they would allow me to do that). I would ask them to give funds not now, but after the research period is over (let’s say 6 months). At the end of the research period, I would produce text that shows instances where I think I had impact and include reasoning why what I did may have had impact. Note that this could include not just published articles, but also comments or in-person communications with trusted advocates that changed how a certain organization does something, reviews of work of others, wikipedia article edits, etc. The amount of funds that I would receive would depend on EA funds manager’s opinion on how good or impactful my work was (or how good of a chance what I did had to be impactful). I imagine that there would be pre-agreed sums of money the manager could choose from. E.g.:
Q: Has anyone estimated what is the risk of catching covid at the EAG London this year? Is it more like 5%, 20%, 50%, or 80%? I still haven't decided whether to go (the only argument for not going being covid) and knowing what is the risk would make it a lot easier. Travelling is not a concern since I live in London not that far from the venue.
Hi Saulius, I've done 3 very basic estimates here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1C6lU4klgisqG150-yR_jZjt253sVrgp2umIbgkUbKbU/edit#gid=0
To get e.g. more than 20% probability, it seems like you'd have to make some very bad assumptions (weirdly high base rates of Covid amongst presumptive attendees, combined with incompetence or malice when it comes to testing). Seems more like 1-5% risk.
I sometimes meet people who claim to be vegetarians (don't eat meat but consume milk and eggs) out of the desire to help the animals. If appropriate, I show them the http://ethical.diet/ website and explain that the production of eggs likely requires more suffering per calorie than most of the commonly consumed meat products. Hence, if they care about animals, avoiding eggs should be a priority. If they say that this is too many food products to give up, I suggest that perhaps instead of eating eggs, they could occasionally consume some beef (although that is bad for the environment). I think that the production of beef requires less suffering per calorie, even though I'm unsure how to compare suffering between different animals. In general, I'm skeptical about dietary change advocacy, but my intuition is that talking about this with vegetarians in situations where it feels appropriate is worth the effort. But I'm uncertain and either way, I don't think this is very important.
A tip for writing EA forum posts with footnotes First press on your nickname in the top right corner, go to Edit Settings and make sure that a checkbox Activate Markdown Editor is checked. Then write a post in Google docs and then use Google Docs to Markdown add-on to convert it to markdown. If you then paste the resulting markdown into the EA forum editor and save it, you will see your text with footnotes. It might also have some unnecessary text that you should delete.
Tables and images
If you have images in your posts, you have to upload them somewhere on the internet (e.g. https://imgur.com/) and write a code like 
in your markdown. Of course, the image address should be changed to your image. Currently, the only way to add tables is to make a screenshot of a table and add an image of it.
As I understand it, there will be a new EA forum editor some time soon and all this will not be needed anymore but for now this is how I make my EA forum posts.
Why don’t we fund movies and documentaries that explore EA topics?
It seems to me that the way society thinks about the future is largely shaped by movies and documentaries. Why don’t we create movies that shape the views in a way that’s more realistic and useful? E.g., I haven’t read the discussion on whether Terminator is or is not a good comparison for AI risks but it’s almost certainly not a perfect comparison. Why don’t we create a better one that we could point people to? Something that would explore many important points. Now that EA has more m... (read more)
If I were to read one of EA-related books (e.g. Doing Good Better, The Most Good You Can Do, The Life You Can Save, The Precipice, Superintelligence, etc.), I would consider writing/improving a summary of the book in wikipedia while reading it, in a way that conveys main points well. It could help you to digest the book better and help others to understand the ideas a bit. You could do it in english as well as maybe in some other language. To see whether it’s worth putting in the effort, you can check out Wikipedia pageview statistics of the books I mentio
... (read more)Shower thought, probably not new: some EAs think that expanding the moral circle to include digital minds should be a priority. But the more agents care about the suffering of digital minds, the more likely it is that some agent that doesn’t care about it will use creating vast amounts of digital suffering as a threat to make other agents do something. To make the threat more credible, in at least some cases it may follow through, although I don’t know what is the most rational strategy here. Could this be a dominant consideration that could make the expec... (read more)
This is an interesting idea. I'm trying to think of it in terms of analogues: you could feasibly replace "digital minds" with "animals" and achieve a somewhat similar conclusion. It doesn't seem that hard to create vast amounts of animal suffering (the animal agriculture industry has this figured out quite well), so some agent could feasibly threaten all vegans with large-scale animal suffering. And as you say, occasionally following through might help make that threat more credible.
Perhaps the reason we don't see this happening is that nobody really wants to influence vegans alone. There aren't many strategic reasons to target an unorganized group of people whose sole common characteristic is that they care about animals. There isn't much that an agent could gain from a threat.
I imagine the same might be true of digital minds. If it's anything similar to the animal case, moral circle expansion to digital minds will likely occur in the same haphazard, unorganized way--and so there wouldn't be much of a reason to specifically target people who care about digital minds. That said, if this moral circle expansion caught on predominantly in one country (or maybe within one powerful company), a competitor or opponent might then have a real use for threatening the digital mind-welfarists. Such an unequal distribution of digital mind-welfarists seems quite unlikely, though.
At any rate, this might be a relevant consideration for other types of moral circle expansion, too.
Someone could say that they will torture animals unless vegans give them money, I guess. I think this doesn't happen for multiple reasons.
Interestingly, there is at least one instance where this apparently has happened. (It's possible it was just a joke, though.) There was even a law review article about the incident.
Why it's difficult to find cost-effective wild animal welfare interventions we could do now
Introduction
Most Wild Animal Welfare (WAW) researchers I talked to thought that we are unlikely to find WAW interventions that would be directly competitive with farmed animal welfare interventions in terms of direct short-term cost-effectiveness. After spending some months trying to find such interventions myself, I tentatively agree. In this text, I will try to explain why.
Experience from the project
I spent some months trying to find a WAW intervention that is:
The first step in the process was listing all potential interventions. Even though many people contributed to it, I found this list to be underwhelming (unfortunately, I don’t think I can share the list without asking for permission from everyone who contributed to it). I feel that coming up with plausible interventions for farmed animals is much easier. And in fact, lists of farmed animal welfare ideas I've seen from Charity Entrepreneurship did seem much more promising. And I found it easy to think of more farmed animal charity ideas for Charity Entrepreneurship. But despite all my research, none of the WAW ideas seem promising enough to seriously consider.
Also, ideas in the WAW list seemed much more complex to research and gain certainty on than most ideas for farmed animals would be. Consequently, the impacts of WAW interventions also in general seemed to be much more uncertain. This makes me less excited about WAW interventions because it increases the effects of the optimizer’s curse.[1]
This could be because the farmed animal welfare movement is much more advanced at this point, and we already know what intermediate goals benefit farmed animals (e.g., reducing animal product consumption, and various welfare reforms). If we figure out what intermediate goals could be good for WAW (e.g., increasing the number of large herbivores), then it might be easier to find promising WAW interventions. In other words, WAW currently seems too neglected for us to have a huge impact right away.
The intervention that seemed to have the highest chance of being cost-effective enough in a demonstrable way was trying to reduce aquatic noise. While I think it’s promising compared to other WAW interventions I considered, there are many farmed animal interventions I would prioritize over reducing aquatic noise.
I still wouldn’t be very surprised if someone found multiple interventions that satisfy these criteria better, especially since I don’t have a background in ecology or something similar. Also, only a few people are working on finding WAW interventions and the space of all possible WAW interventions is large.
Comparing farmed and wild animal welfare interventions of similar categories
Both WAW and farmed animal welfare interventions can be categorized as:
Below, I compare farmed and wild animal welfare interventions in each of these categories.
Improving welfare
Farmed animal welfare interventions seem more promising because humans are in control of the entire lives of farmed animals. This makes it easier to improve their conditions and genetics, and easier to monitor the effects of changes we make. Also, WAW interventions often affect more species which complicates things a lot. Hence, researching WAW welfare improvements seem to be less tractable.
Welfare improvements that to me seem most promising for wild animals are about some sort of pollution that causes a lot of stress to wild animals. Note that if it affects the population sizes of different species, it can be very difficult to know if an intervention is overall good or bad.
Changing population sizes
I believe that it can sometimes be easier to change the population sizes of small wild animals than to change the population sizes of farmed animals. The problem is that it’s more difficult to know whether the change is good or bad for animal welfare.
The lives of most farmed animals are clearly worse than non-existence. In contrast, it’s unclear whether wild animals’ lives are good or bad (see this talk). My best guess is that in the short term, it would be better for WAW to decrease the overall population of wild animals. However, this usually goes against other human interests (like environmental protection), while decreasing farmed animal populations generally goes along with these other human interests as it decreases our environmental footprint. This makes working on reducing wild animal numbers much more morally ambiguous and controversial or even politically infeasible.
Also, often when we decrease the population of one species, the population of some other species increases. This applies to both farmed and wild animal interventions and complicates any analysis of short-term effects a lot. I’d say that the effects on WAW of farmed animal welfare interventions are maybe a bit easier to predict but we still can’t predict the total effect on welfare with reasonable certainty. This has led me to analysis paralysis and I don’t know what to do about that.
Perhaps we could speculate that some r-selected species are worse off than some k-selected species. And perhaps if we grow one crop or tree instead of another, or fish different species of fishes, the ratio between the populations of these species would change. I simply didn’t have the expertise to try to find such an intervention, maybe someone else will. Perhaps a more promising idea is trying to eradicate some parasite that causes a lot of suffering (e.g., screwworm).
Reducing suffering during death
Since humane slaughter interventions typically affect animals for a short time, my personal intuition is that they are less important. But it depends on how you weigh intense suffering during death versus more prolonged but less intense suffering.
Reducing farmed animal slaughters might be more tractable because
On the other hand, since most animals humans kill are wild, the ultimate possible scale of working on wild animals is much higher.
I didn’t look into humane insecticides much because the author of this report told me in 2020 that there isn’t enough research on causes of insect suffering and nontarget effects of interventions to recommend an action that a non-research charity could center itself on. I took their word for it.
For wild or liminal animals, another option is to never let animals that we would kill come into existence, perhaps by cutting off the food supply or informing people how to prevent pest infestations. I looked a bit into preventing termite infestations and it seemed doable but not a priority, partly because they might be living good lives most of the time.
Closing thoughts
I only give limited weight to this sort of high-level reasoning I did above, there could be interventions to which my reasoning does not apply. Also, it’s not that surprising that I failed to find promising WAW interventions since I don’t have expertise in ecology or other relevant fields. But few other researchers who have been researching this for a while failed to find very promising interventions too, so far and think that it’s unlikely that they will find them.
Also, I remember GiveWell writing a long time ago that when they look deeper at some cause area, they almost always conclude that it’s less promising than they originally thought, so maybe this is what happened to me. That said, when I looked into farmed animal welfare (especially welfare reforms), I came away thinking that it’s much more promising than I thought.
Opinions expressed here are solely my own. I’m not currently employed by any organization. I wrote this text about a year ago but didn’t get around to publishing it until now, something might have changed since then.
Explanation of the Optimizer's Curse (adapted from this post): Suppose you weigh ten identical items with very inaccurate scales. The item that is the heaviest according to your results is simply the item whose weight was the most overestimated by the scales. Now suppose the items are similar but not identical. The item that is the heaviest according to the scales is also the item whose weight is most likely an overestimate.
Similarly, suppose that you make very approximate cost-effectiveness estimates of ten different interventions. The charity that seems the most cost-effective according to your estimates could seem that way only because you overestimated its cost-effectiveness, not because it is actually more cost-effective than others. Consequently, even if we are unbiased in our estimates, we might be too optimistic about interventions that seem the most cost-effective. The more uncertain cost-effectiveness estimates are, the stronger the effect of the optimizer's curse is. Hence we should prefer interventions whose cost-effectiveness estimates are more robust. Since cost-effectiveness estimates of WAW interventions tend to be very uncertain, this is an argument against WAW interventions. More on optimizer’s curse can be read in Karnofsky (2016).
Thanks for the details! Just curious. It does feel post-y, but I can understand. Maybe posting as a personal blog (not on the frontpage) or on the animal welfare topic but not on the frontpage would have worked for what you are looking for