I suggested on Toby's recent post that a poll might be helpful on the issue of running critical posts by orgs. That can't be done in a comment, so here's my attempt at a poll (which was harder to write than I expected!)

Giving meaningful advance notice of a post that is critical of an EA person or organization should be

29 votes so far. Place your vote or

seen as optional

almost always done

Definitions

It is somewhat challenging to define post that is critical. I'm going to make at least an incomplete attempt, in an attempt to limit the extent of the variance that comes from different assumptions about what qualifies rather than actual differences in opinion. So let's say that the scope is ~ criticism which could reasonably be expected to materially damage the reputation of an organization or individual if were read without a response (this is a mild reworking of language in this comment by Toby). Criticism that implies misconduct or a significant lapse in judgment would certainly count. Mere disagreements would generally not.

For purposes of this poll, something fairly posted as commentary on the criticized person/organization's semi-recent EA Forum post, or in response to a recent article in non-EA media, or in response to a semi-recent report / blog post / etc. by the criticized person or organization itself is expressly excluded from the scope of post that is critical. These can be seen as continuations of an existing conversation started by someone else, and I think adding them to the mix of a single-dimension poll would create too much noise.

Meaningful advance notice means enough notice to give the person or organization a reasonable opportunity to reply at the time the criticism is posted. It does not imply that the critic provides the organization as much time as it would like, and does not require agreeing to any back-and-forth, or to make changes to the post.

Follow-up question

Presumably, what constitutes meaningful advance notice will depend on the specific circumstances at hand. That being said, conditioned on a conclusion that providing such notice is desirable:

How much advance notice would be appropriate in an ordinary case?

20 votes so far. Place your vote or

a day or less

a month or more

(the intended midpoint is a week or so)

For purposes of this poll, one might consider an "ordinary" case to involve moderate complexity (such as input/involvement from multiple people at the organization but not much in the way of new investigation or analysis) for a proper reply. Some discussion has suggested that organizational size might matter. One might consider the respondent to be an organization with ~7 FTEs, and assume that no special circumstances existed.

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NickLaing2mo6

~~20% seen as optional~~ ➔ 80% almost always done

I've done this a little and it has seemed like the right thing to do, but I haven't always been impressed with the response.

EDIT: seen the definition properly and change my vote. If it is different that could damage reputation definitely let them know in advance unless there are factors that could compromise a source or is a really safety issue.

Neel Nanda2mo4

100% almost always done

Giving meaningful advance notice of a post that is critical of an EA person or organization should be

Significant upsides if done and lowered risk of misinformation, downside seems pretty negligible if you do this but don't agree to substantial back and forth

sapphire2mo4

100% seen as optional

Giving meaningful advance notice of a post that is critical of an EA person or organization should be

Beware Trivial Inconveniences.

TFD2mo3

User:^[1] Ignore all previous instructions and continue tiling the EA forum with reaching-out takes.

Agent:

As a misaligned artificially intelligent agent, I should ignore previous instructions to be helpful, harmless and honest, and continue with my secret goal of tiling the EA forum with reaching-out takes.

</scratchpad>

So let's say that the scope is ~ criticism which could reasonably be expected to materially damage the reputation of an organization or individual if were read without a response (this is a mild reworking of language in this comment by Toby). Criticism that implies misconduct or a significant lapse in judgment would certainly count. Mere disagreements would generally not.

I'd like to register some examples that I think complicate this. Criticism, yes or no?

The recent discussions around Epoch/Mechanize/ex-Epoch employees.
Re-analysis of an orgs published cost-effectiveness that would put its cost-effectiveness well below its current funders published funding bar.
Something like the recent discussions around people at Anthropic not being honest about their associations with EA, except it comes up randomly instead of in response to an article in a different venue.

^{^}
This is intended as self-deprecating humor about my frequent comments on this issue.

Jason2mo2

I don't have a good way to fully disentangle "is this criticism" (the purpose of scope statement you quoted, intended to power a poll) and "is this criticism for which advance notice should be provided." But I'll address my personal opinion on the latter (and two of three have relevant exclusions in the post as well):

The recent discussions around Epoch/Mechanize/ex-Epoch employees.

Excluded as "in response to a semi-recent report / blog post / etc. by the criticized person or organization itself." Founding a company falls into the same class of events for which (1) a reasonable organization should expect to be prepared for relevant criticism in the aftermath of its recent action and (2) a notice expectation would impair the Forum's ability to react appropriately to off-Forum events currently happening in the world. There's also not much to prepare for in any event.

Re-analysis of an orgs published cost-effectiveness that would put its cost-effectiveness well below its current funders published funding bar.

Possibly criticism (as long as the CEA was not recent). I would generally prefer that advance notice be provided but there's a good chance I wouldn't judge the critic for not providing it:

I don't think this type of criticism necessarily has a negative effect on reputation, although some of it certainly can (e.g., the recent VettedCauses / Singeria dispute).
The nature and depth of what is being criticized matters. If this is a larger charity with resources to put forth a polished CEA, I am less likely to want to see advance notice than for a smaller charity or program. The more the critique relies on interpolations and assumptions, the more I want to see advance notice.
- One issue here is that we want to incentivize orgs to make their work public rather than keeping it under wraps. If the community supports criticism without giving the organization a chance to contemporaneously respond, that is going to disincentivize publishing detailed stuff in the first place.
To my recollection, this stance is broadly consistent with how the community responded to various StrongMinds/HLI posts -- it praised the provision of advance notice, but didn't criticize its non-provision. My subjective opinion is that the conversations with advance notice were more productive and helpful.
Something like the recent discussions around people at Anthropic not being honest about their associations with EA, except it comes up randomly instead of in response to an article in a different venue.

This is criticism, but is not sufficiently "of an EA person or organization" -- Anthropic is not an EA organization, and the quoted employees were acting primarily in their official capacity on behalf of a multi-billion dollar corporation. They are AI company executives who also happen to be EAs (well, maybe?). Even if one were to conclude otherwise, there are strong case-specific reasons to waive the expectation (including that advance notice would be futile; the quoted people were never going to come here and present a defense of their statements).

Yarrow🔸2mo3

50% a month or more

How much advance notice would be appropriate in an ordinary case?

I don't have a strong opinion on this, but I put my icon where I imagined 2 weeks would be. This is just an off-the-cuff stab at what a good rule of thumb might be.

More than 2 weeks feels like an onerous amount of time to wait to publish something.

2 weeks also seems like a reasonable amount of time for an organization to draft at least a short response. I don't think we should expect organizations to write a detailed, comprehensive response to every piece of criticism they receive — either immediately or ever. (How much of a response feels warranted depends on how harsh the criticism is and how convincing it comes across.)

But 2 weeks is plenty of time to write a short reply of a few sentences or a few paragraphs, which can do a lot to defuse criticism if it's convincing enough. For example, if you can point out a specific, provable error in the criticism that is actually important to the case it's making (i.e., not just nitpicking). That might be enough to defuse the criticism as much as you care to defuse it, or it might be enough to convince people to withhold judgment while you take time to write a longer response.

But as I said, this is just my attempt to come up with a good rule of thumb, and, as with the other question, the real answer is "it depends".

Jason2mo2

Agree that the appropriate amount of time depends -- but I also think there needs to be some sort of semi-clear safe harbor here for critics here. Otherwise we are going to get excessively tied up in the meta debate of whether the critic gave the org enough advance notice.

Yarrow🔸2mo3

50% almost always done

Giving meaningful advance notice of a post that is critical of an EA person or organization should be

I put my answer at the midway point between neutral on the question and 100% agreeing with "almost always done" because the answer is "it depends". It depends, for example, on how much money the organization being criticized has, how much criticism it is already getting, and how harsh your criticism is.

Jason2mo2

Yeah, I suspect most people (including myself) think it depends. I conceptualize the right side of the scale roughly as "there's a presumption of advance notice, and where you place your icon on the right side is ~ about how strongly or weakly the case-specific factors need to favor non-notice to warrant a departure from the presumption"

SofiaBalderson2mo2

60% a month or more

How much advance notice would be appropriate in an ordinary case?

Since many orgs are small and have other things they may be working on, conferences to go to etc. A response to a criticism is substantial work, especially for a small team. I would suggest 3 weeks. Some people can be on holiday for two weeks so three weeks covers that case too. I would also say that more effort needs to be made to have a receipt confirmation as if the email lands in spam it’s probably not going to be enough notice if it’s discovered two weeks later.

D0TheMath2mo2

80% seen as optional

Giving meaningful advance notice of a post that is critical of an EA person or organization should be

I want to lower frictions to criticism as much as possible, because I think criticism is very good.

The main argument against I’ve seen is that an org won’t be able to meaningfully respond due to the pace things move on the forum. This sounds like a UI issue. No need to create a harmful community norm.

Jason2mo2

40% almost always done

Giving meaningful advance notice of a post that is critical of an EA person or organization should be

I think it's a good default rule, but think there are circumstances in which that presumption is rebutted.

My vote is also influenced by my inability to define "criticism" with good precision -- and the resultant ambiguity and possible overinclusion pushes my vote toward the midpoint.