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When people talk about women's negative experiences in EA, they act as if it happens because men just don't care about women's feelings.

I was banned from EAGs for a year. And I care about women’s feelings. I just don’t think we’re a good fit.

Examples/things that brought this mind

Thesis

Men who upset women in EA don’t care about women’s feelings.

Antithesis 

I am a man who was banned from EAGs for a year, but I care about women's feelings.

Synthesis

Sometimes there are hard tradeoffs between people where neither party is obviously good or bad. In such cases it is better to acknowledge that we are actually making choices about what culture works for what group.  

Preamble

I am an outgoing but clumsy person. I make friends a lot, flirt a lot. I get distracted easily and say things that seem true to me. In general, I think I bring a lot of joy to the world. But for a few, I upset them quite a lot. 

And so, over a couple of years I had a number of run-ins with community health. Bad breakups, people who felt uncomfortable with ancillary touches or slightly flirtatious comments. To be extra scrupulous I asked upset people if they wanted me to report myself. I even asked community health for advice, to try and reduce the risk.

But even after that and though I was on my best behaviour, trying to be really careful, I was told I upset two more people and I was banned from EA events for a year.

That’s a pretty bad sign. 

I cannot be that bad, because I'm allowed to attend events again. And nor is this article a diatribe against community health, who have a hard job and do it quite well. It's not even to profess my innocence—I imagine I did many of the things people report that I did.

I write this because I see and hear people like myself portrayed as uncaring. And I don’t think that’s true of me. I like many of the people I upset a lot. My internal experience is of caring about them.

And I also write this because there is a tradeoff here that people don’t want to talk about. Between clumsy men and sensitive women. And I am not asking for the situation to change—I have already largely left— but I think it’s a valuable conversation to have. 

Evidence of caring

Here are some ways in which I see that I care:

  • I think about how to not upset people while talking to them
  • If I upset someone, I asked if they wanted me to tell community health
  • I asked community health for advice about upsetting people less
  • I always made clear that people could tell whoever they wanted
  • Towards the end I would ask even close friends if I could hug them
  • At the end, I was being as careful as I could be

But still people were upset (earlier cases, I know what I did, later ones I have no idea)

Even so, I care still:

  • People’s sadness is bad, even if has caused me pain
  • I have thought about this for many hours
  • I have gotten feedback from friends
  • I have tried to learn more about this

How did this happen?

I’m not going to talk about specific events. But there were a number of small incidents.

It was a range of upset partners, small touches people didn’t like, comments people didn’t like and some I don’t know of.

How did this happen so often? 

I grew up in quite a touchy culture and so I used to touch people on the arm a lot while talking to them. I’m not great at reading facial expressions so sometimes I misunderstand people. I am attractive enough that people do actually want to date me so I become close to people. I am social enough that I think people assume I understand what I am doing. I have a tendency to focus on straight talking rather than kindness when things get heated.

Why was I dismissive of people I dated?

I guess I just wasn’t tracking it. I felt like it was pretty clear that I liked and respected my partners. I did lots of things in my own mind that showed that I cared about them. I now acknowledge the error and am sorry, but at the time, it was just very easy for me not to notice, or focus on caring for them in other ways (which perhaps they didn’t notice). I do not think my behavior, if explained would seem deeply unacceptable.

How could I stand so close to random people at parties, or touch them on the arm?

I’ve always been told I don’t have a great grasp of personal space. In some sense I don’t know what your experience of it is. How do you know how close to stand? Can you feel, somewhere, that someone is crowding you? Can you sense when they move back? I can start to notice some of that, but only if I’m really paying attention. And mostly I am not.

How could I think that flirty action was appropriate?

Well often I am tracking a history of some flirting. I don’t just jump to level 10. In most of the times someone has been upset, I’ve either asked, or we’ve talked about sex before (or sexted) or they were a close friend. I acknowledge that I have made errors, but also, sometimes things go really well? Sometimes the kind of thing that one person thinks is entirely unacceptable, another thinks is fine, or good. 

Suffering matters, including mine

It seems natural to focus on the women who suffer here. If it is anyone’s fault, it is mine. And I do take responsibility for changing my behaviour.

But conscious experience matters. And I am conscious too. 

And I suffer. I have hurt across months over this. I have lost friends. I hear rumours about myself that don’t match my recollection. I have no recourse to challenge or understand. 

And isn’t it possible that this wasn’t anyone’s fault? That there were different norms and expectations and actions that would have been reasonable elsewhere hurt people. 

I am glad we listen to those people, but I would like us to also listen to me. 

I don’t think we’re a good fit

I don’t think we are a good fit. 

And I have mostly stopped going to EA events.

I don’t want to upset people even when I’m trying my hardest, and I don’t feel safe in an environment where my actions are misinterpreted.

EA used to be a community where I felt more welcomed. I've come to realize that the current form of EA is not great for me because, despite my good intentions, I cannot "be myself" without hurting some subset of women and the community will side against me if this happens.

I’d like us to be honest about this

It's ok if the community decides to value the comfort of some subset of women over guys like me.

But I wish we acknowledged this trade-off. And I think a more mature community would have discussions about what norms they want. I think it’s bad that we don’t. 

I agree that discomfort is bad, too.

But I also wish we acknowledged that there is value in physical contact among friends or even casual romantic interactions.

There is a tradeoff here too. 

This is a hard problem, and we can't satisfy everyone. But ultimately, the guys upsetting people aren't necessarily bad people. There are other ways that bad outcomes can result. I hold myself responsible, but I’m not a bad person. I’m a person.

 

To those I have upset, I am sorry. I would take it back if I could. 

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Although you haven't asked for advice, and imply that you're on your way out of the EA community, I am going to offer some advice anyway. I don't think the issue you describe is particularly uncommon here, and individuals with somewhat similar issues may be reading this thread. 

This isn't the advice I would give after most first or even second complaints, but I think it is warranted after a string of incidents significant enough to warrant a year-long EAG ban (and probably at least some version of it was warranted at some juncture before that).

I submit that, if you were to return to in-person EA spaces,[1] you really need to employ some bright-line rules to prevent future harm while in those spaces. For instance: No flirting. No touching women.[2] 

Based on your narrative, it seems that your best efforts at avoiding harm while employing more flexible standards are not succeeding. If following judgment-based standards are not avoiding harassment,[3] then I don't see another viable option other than bright-line rules. And those will have the usual downside of bright-line rules -- they will rule out some behavior that would actually have been OK. 

Although you characterize the situation as the community deciding "to value the comfort of some subset of women over guys like me" (emphasis added), I would characterize it as the community valuing fellow community members' right to bodily integrity and right to a harassment-free experience over your interest in continuing to interact with women in ways a number of them find inappropriate and/or offensive enough to have reached out to Community Health. 

These sorts of rules are necessary in some professional spaces for some actors (for instance, psychiatrists and other mental health professionals). It seems that they would be necessary for you in EA spaces.[4] While I'm not suggesting that a bright-line rule against flirting is necessary for EA spaces in general, I think it may often be necessary for those who have a history of harassing behavior. 

I recognize that creates a burden for you that others do not have to bear. But it does not impair your ability to participate in the core of what EA is. And some differential burden is unavoidable in life. 

For example, there are a number of reasons that are not a person's fault that nonetheless can make them unsuitable to drive a motor vehicle (or do so only under limited conditions) -- extreme clumsiness, severe anxiety disorders, blindness, seizure disorders, etc. People are morally culpable (and expose themselves to criminal liability) if they recklessly [5] keep driving even after it is clear that their condition renders their continued driving an unacceptable risk to other road users. Ultimately, it is not enough that these individuals care about avoiding harm, they have to stop driving at least once it is clear enough that no lesser alternative will protect other road users' rights.[6] Based on your post, I think you may be in a roughly analogous situation here.

 

 

 

  1. ^

    I recognize that it may be difficult to discern exactly what counts as an "EA space," and am cognizant of the downsides of extending EA "jurisdiction" as it were too far into people's private lives. I'd suggest that anything that happens in the city of an out-of-town EA event, or on the day of an in-town one, is very likely to involve an EA space. This definition is doubtless underinclusive. For instance, I would consider most parties with a bunch of people who are EAs to be "EA spaces," similar to how I would usually treat a party with a bunch of people from the same office/employer as a work-related event for harassment purposes.

    I also recognize that the question of interactions with EAs outside out "EA spaces" is outside the scope of this response.

  2. ^

    I am assuming from your framing that all the complaints have involved women.

  3. ^

    Given the number of reports to Community Health, I feel confident that this is the correct characterization.

  4. ^

     What rules you should follow outside EA spaces is largely beyond the scope of this comment. It is likely that you should follow similar rules in at least some contexts -- e.g., where the other party is on the job, and thus their ability to extricate themselves from an uncomfortable situation is limited by that status. On the other hand, certain other social spaces may warrant less restrictive rules.

  5. ^

    Lightly adapting from the Model Penal Code, recklessness exists when an individual "consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that" a certain kind of harm "will result from his conduct." 

  6. ^

    Readers who live in areas with good public transportation may underestimate how severe the impact of losing the ability to drive is for most people in the United States.

  7. Show all footnotes

Yes, I agree. And I did this, but I still got several complaints. At this point, I am not sure how I could be more careful than I was at the end. I'm not exaggerating. I wasn't flirting at all or touching people (I asked my friends before I did, and didn't touch anyone else). 

"I recognize that creates a burden for you that others do not have to bear. But it does not impair your ability to participate in the core of what EA is. And some differential burden is unavoidable in life. "

Yeah I don't totally disagree here. 

I would like to suggest that folk not downvote this post below zero. I'm generally in favour of allowing people to defend themselves, unless their response is clearly in bad faith. I'm sure many folk strongly disagree with the OP's desired social norms, but this is different from bad faith.

Additionally, I suspect most of us have very little insight into how community health operates and this post provides some much needed visibility. Regardless of whether you think their response was just right, too harsh or too lenient, this post opens up a rare opportunity for the community to weigh in.

I suspect people are downvoting this post either because they think the author is a bad person or they don't want the author at EA events. I would suggest that neither of these are good reasons to downvote this specific post into the negative.

Hi,

This meant a lot to me. 

This is how I would like to judge posts I disagree with, so I appreciate you advocating for mine in such terms.

When people talk about women's negative experiences in EA, they act as if it happens because men just don't care about women's feelings.

I opened the second example you cited, and they explictly deny the framework you are offering here. I'll quote in full because I think it's relevant here:

It’s interesting, because in these instances, I’m never talking about intention. I’m never saying, “this person condescends me because they are sexist” or “this person touches me because they are malicious.” And yet, immediately, a charitable intention is proposed to me. An explanation offered, the action is defended. Lest I start getting any ideas of even daring to suggest ill intent.

But I don’t care that much about intent anymore, because I’ve learned it’s a losing game. I don’t care if they are autistic or traumatised or delusional or shy or if free will exists or doesn’t. At a point, we’ve just lost the plot entirely. I am identifying an action that I want stopped. I do not need to have my empathy invoked. I naturally have immense empathy—often to my own detriment, often to a far greater degree than the “intention explorers” I’m conversing with. I am voicing a hurt and a need. And a helpful solution might be as simple as giving someone feedback. Or even just offering recognition.

The outcomes of your actions matter more than your intent. If it got to the point of you being banned from EA spaces, probably your actions had quite negative outcomes. In that case it is your responsibility to manage your behaviour to prevent causing those negative outcomes again, and it is the communities responsibility to prevent you and others from doing the same.  

I added some posts to try and give context to the piece. 

I think that many people seem to hold it against the men in question personally. Do you disagree? If not, not sure we need to discuss a different article. 

[edit] deleted because I realise i should not engage with this post for the reasons I clarify below (I know the person & a few of the reasons they were reported, I find this emotionally-charged and overwhelming and don't know how to be neutral or "objective" on the basis of the post alone) 

FWIW, I read your post and appreciated it. (I'm the same Kip who commented on it when you posted it initially. Hi!)

But "Men who upset women in EA don’t care about women’s feelings" was roughly one of my takeaways from the post! So I don't think it's an unfair interpretation. I didn't see it as the main thesis, but I found that point interesting and memorable.

Here's the snippet that gave me that takeaway (emphasis added by me):

> it turned out, the problem wasn’t that my cues were too difficult to read. Or that I was too passive or too fawning or too inarticulate. That was mostly a convenient story. The problem was: they did not care what I wanted if it contradicted what they wanted.

The above snippet makes it sound like EA guys were fully blaming you for communication issues, and they didn't care what you wanted. And it seems to claim that their lack-of-care was the core problem.

OP sounds like a counter example for this pattern; he (at least partly) blames himself for being clumsy, and expresses (in many ways) that he did actually care about "what they wanted."

Hey Kip! That makes sense to me. I think I basically just can't objectively comment or reflect on this post because I know OP and the details of some of the stuff they were reported for.  So I won't say anything more meaningful here, but I appreciate your comment :) 

@titotal, note that this reply sort of stands in contrast to your original message.

Hi, I read the piece a while back. I liked some bits and disliked others. Mainly I wanted to give some context for my piece. 

I don't think my piece is deeply engaging with yours, nor is it intending to.

On harms versus intent, I agree harms matter more.

But I disagree on the last point. I think harm probably is sometimes the result of people with different norms/ preferences/ boundaries interacting. And I think EA takes particular sides in these cases. 

The way you've formatted this post makes it seem like my article and the time article are examples of the thesis, you might want to clarify that. 

thanks for updating! I realise I'm becoming overwhelmed since it's very obvious to me who wrote this post, so I'm just going to bow out and delete my comment (so as to prevent me thinking about this post any further). 

Context: I am a person who faces harassment in my life sometimes, though not (yet) in EA spaces.

I think it's interesting to hear your experience of the situations you have got yourself into. I'll leave dissecting any issues with the post to others.

Do you feel like any of the advice you received was more effective than other pieces of advice? I would like to know what kind of advice I could give someone in your approximate situation in order to help them change their behavior and avoid a ban.

Perhaps, "Take this extremely seriously. Imagine how I [you] am feeling right now, do you really want to cause that?" and maybe "If you continue to cause issues like this, things probably won't go well for you and is this really a good place for you?" 

Perhaps show them this piece? I think many people can improve at this, but those that can't would probably be better served by leaving earlier. 

Sorry to hear about the harassment, glad it's not happened in EA spaces, they tend to be pretty careful about this stuff. 

Having thought a bit more about this, maybe "listen. listen. listen". I think I'm often incurious about the feelings of others, perhaps because I don't really expect myself to understand what upset them. Easier for me, sometimes to come up with a hard and fast rule "ask before you touch people" "don't flirt at this event" than to really get it.

I guess I could just pay a lot more attention to why people are upset in the first place. And perhaps sort of give up on really understanding in order to just listen. That's my current approach anyway. 

I've read the responses to this post and while many of them contain criticisms of me and my actions (many of which I agree with and wrote in the original post), few seem to contain substantive disagreements to the post itself.

The post has a lot of downvotes and 12 people have reacted with "disagree".

I don't think it should be enough to dislike my conduct. I often dislike it too. Could someone explain what is wrong with the post?

I still claim that I care about people I have upset and that EA is not a very good fit for me. I think even after being exceedingly careful, people were still upset. This was after having attempted to stop flirting and un-asked touches altogether.

What, actually, are your disagreements with the post?

A goodfaith interpretation of this reads to me as:   you are sad about feeling "shamed" or socially punished for what happened and angry because you feel like you shouldn't be punished for something that you couldn't have done differently - and you want other people to acknowledge that this sucks for you. This is all understandable. It might in fact not be your fault (impossible for me to know), and I'm sorry if that's the case. But this will not be the last time you will be affected by something that isn't your fault. It's okay to be sad/angry at this, but I honestly think whatever acknowledgement you get from other people about this particular case will not eliminate this sad thing about your (or anyone else's) life.  

But there is another interpretation, that feels a lot like "I'm hurt and leaving this community. It's not my fault. So it has to be someone elses"("the community, frances, the time magazine article, whoever acts like you don't care about women's suffering."). 

If you don't endorse that second one, I think this post, and particularly the first sentence is not very helpful. 

("When people talk about women's negative experiences in EA, they act as if it happens because men just don't care about women's feelings." ) 

Clearly noone knows about what other people care about. And to assume that every man who hurts women doesn't care about women's feelings would be overconfident. What seems reasonable though is that 1) men who hurt women either don't care enough to change their behaviour or 2) cannot change their behaviour. 

Without getting into a conversation about how easy it is to change your behaviour in particular or free will or whatever - it seems fair to say that hurting people is wrong and that it would be good to incentivise not hurting others - so that its worth caring about whether or not you're hurting other people. 

This is intrinsically going to be shitty for people who - for some reason - cannot change their behaviour. But the alternative of simply tolerating people hurting others seems .. just pretty clearly worse? Partially because you'll still face the problem of being associated with people who absolutely could change their behaviour, but just don't - because they don't care enough about other people's feelings. You might not be excluded from EAG's, but EAG's would look pretty different, too. 

You do say "It's ok if the community decides to value the comfort of some subset of women over guys like me. But I wish we acknowledged this trade-off." - I'm assuming you mean "guys who can't change their behaviour - even when they care enough to try" -  How can a community "acknowledge" that your inability to change your behaviour - infact - wasn't anyone's fault and you couldn't have done any better and that you tried your best - when this is clearly impossible for anyone (but you) to know? Furthermore - how do you know that you genuinely can't change your behaviour? Changing this stuff can take a long long time, and a lot of reflection on the culture you grew up in, getting better at asking for things, confronting painful stuff, etc. 

The pragmatic approach for a community to this stuff just is "We don't know whether this behaviour is anyone's fault, but the consequences of this behaviour seem unacceptable (i.e. constantly getting harassed at EAGs seems so much worse than not being able to attend EAG's for a year) so we should incentivise people trying as hard as they can to not do it." Particularly when "Some men just can't help it, so what happens happens" has historically been used as an argument for terrible terrible norms in this particular area. 

Do you think it's possible that some amount of the behaviour I did would be acceptable in other spaces? eg is there any choice at all in EA norms, or is there sort of a rule of the universe about where community norms should be and my behaviour very likely crosses that line everywhere.

I guess I do think it's more that some behaviour was unacceptable, some was marginal and some was bad for EA but would have been fine in other places. Or at the very least I was (and am) confused that it upset people (and tends to upset EAs much more than other friends). 

I appreciate you sharing your perspective, and I can see this has been difficult for you. However, I find your framing troubling for several reasons:

I don't feel like your apology fully acknowledges wrongdoing. You say you're sorry people were upset, but you frame your behaviour as part of an unavoidable "tradeoff" between different communication styles rather than as something you should work to change. This shifts from "I'm really sorry and will change" to "I'm sorry you're sad, but I endorse my actions and may continue them."

Most men navigate these situations without repeated issues. The fact that you've had multiple incidents over years, culminating in a ban, suggests this isn't about inherent incompatibility between "clumsy men and sensitive women." Many men—including those who are neurodivergent, from different cultural backgrounds, or naturally flirtatious—manage to participate in EA without repeatedly making others uncomfortable. Some aren't flirty at all and still form meaningful relationships.

Cultural differences can be navigated. While I understand different cultures have different norms around touch, people regularly adapt their behaviour when they learn it's making others uncomfortable. You mention being "as careful as you could be," but if that still resulted in complaints, it might be worth exploring different strategies rather than framing it as an unsolvable incompatibility.

The social utilitarian framing feels concerning. You seem to weigh your enjoyment of physical touch and flirtation against others' discomfort as if they're comparable goods. Most people (even those within EA) might find this approach to interpersonal ethics troubling—it treats others' boundaries as negotiable based on your personal cost-benefit analysis.

I understand you've experienced real loss here—friendships, community, and reputation. But I don't think the "tradeoff" you describe is inevitable—it's about finding ways to express yourself that don't consistently cross others' boundaries.

I am confused by this.

You attribute a sense to me: "I'm sorry you're sad, but I endorse my actions and may continue them."

This piece is about how I've largely stopped attending EA events. I don't intend to continue these actions. Also I explicitly do not endorse many of these actions "I would take it back if I could."

Perhaps you mean that it seems like I intend to continue being social and occasionally touching my friends on the arm or making slightly flirty jokes outside of the EA community. I am more careful these days, but yes I do. Is this your issue?

You say "Many men—including those who are neurodivergent, from different cultural backgrounds, or naturally flirtatious—manage to participate in EA without repeatedly making others uncomfortable." 

Yes, this is true. Do you think that the piece doesn't acknowledge this? eg here:

"I’ve always been told I don’t have a great grasp of personal space. In some sense I don’t know what your experience of it is. How do you know how close to stand? Can you feel, somewhere, that someone is crowding you? Can you sense when they move back? I can start to notice some of that, but only if I’m really paying attention. And mostly I am not."

My point is that I can both care about people and hurt them and so seek to remove myself from the situation? Is your point that I don't actually care? Or that there is some obvious low risk path I can take short of removing myself? I think I'm missing the implication here? What do you think the obvious next step is?

you frame your behaviour as part of an unavoidable "tradeoff" between different communication styles rather than as something you should work to change

This seems inconsistent with the post - they give a list of various ways they tried to work to change it in the "Evidence of caring" section. This seemed like a pretty central part of the post to me and I'm confused by how you missed it (unless your comment was LLM written, which I would consider poor form -- you do have 5 em-dashes after all)

He didn't succeed at changing their behavior, but (assuming they made a sincere effort) I consider that more about ability than intent. I'm not trying to minimise this: the impact on others remains serious regardless of intent, and I think asking him to leave community spaces to minimize harm to others is reasonable. But I think this is still an important difference, especially when passing moral judgement on him.

My impression from the post is that he intends to continue not going to EA events, even after the ban. If true, this actually seems like a pretty good strategy for minimizing future harm done within the EA community, and better than him rejoining events and trying harder to fix his behavior. 

On the outside view, I predict that if someone tries to fix a problem with their behavior and self describes as "as careful as I could be" but fails to avoid future incidents, then no matter how hard they try/what approach they adopt, their next attempt has a decent chance to fail. So from a harm minimisation perspective, removing themselves from situations where they could cause harm seems better. Suggesting that he just try harder without additional specifics, seems like it will increase the expected number of women harmed, which I consider irresponsible advice. The top priority is harm minimisation, not about getting him to accept personal responsibility.

This doesn't address the risk of causing harm in their other social contexts, but that feels harder to judge without more information. I think the EA community has a uniquely strong mix of social and professional contexts that can be particularly hard to navigate well, especially EAGs. I can totally believe there are people whose behaviour causes harm in EA circles who are fine elsewhere.

@Toby Tremlett🔹 This content seems to be AI written, and also (relatedly?) to be misunderstanding the post. Are there any plans to implement a policy on LLMs, like the one on LessWrong?

(Edit: referring to Eli Nathan's comment)

Thanks May. Regarding this specific comment - I think it adds value, and mod action isn't needed. But the mods have been discussing an LLM policy, and this is a valuable bump! We've been getting more substantially AI comments recently, and we've rate-limited and spoken with the individuals. But in my view, we definitely need a more scalable solution, and clearer norms on this. Stay tuned. 

For what it's worth, I don't think it's AI written. But even if it is, it's fine with me. It makes information dense points, that one might agree or disagree with. 

I agree it seems to be misunderstanding the post.  

I appreciate the thoughts from the comments below, but I don't think I misunderstood the core issues. SpeedyOtter does say he continues being "touchy" and "flirty" outside EA—he's just (mostly) stopped attending EA events. My concern is that he's not saying "I've recognised this behaviour is harmful and stopped," but rather "I've moved it to other communities."

I did read the "Evidence of caring" section, and I can see he feels genuine sadness about the situation. However, planning to continue behaviours that repeatedly make others uncomfortable, even after seeing the harm they cause, seems concerning to me. And throughout I still felt there was a general framing of boundary issues as an inevitable trade-off between different social styles, e.g. with the comment "but also, sometimes things go really well". This comment gave me the vibe of "yes I sometimes hurt people, but sometimes my behaviour goes well, and some amount of this trade-off is acceptable", which in theory is correct, but many men have healthy relationships with women without sometimes hurting them as collateral damage.

I acknowledge that he says he tried to stop flirting/touching but complaints continued. This raises questions: either there's a significant gap in understanding what constitutes appropriate behaviour, or there were other problematic behaviours not being addressed. And my guess is that part of what's needed isn't just behavioural tweaks, but a fundamental shift away from viewing others' discomfort as acceptable collateral damage for personal expression.

(And to clarify, I did use LLMs to help draft this and its parent comment, but I don't see that as problematic, and I have consistently used em-dashes for years, so I wouldn't take that as a signal of anything.)

I asked a couple of questions in reply to your message. I don't think this can really be a dialogue if you respond to your own questions rather than mine. 

This isn't even an EA vs non-EA thing. I assure you that randomly touching women, whether female colleagues or strangers, in a normal corporate or government or non-profit job will deservedly get you fired for sexual harrassment.

I agree, where do you think I say otherwise?

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