I think it’s likely that institutional effective altruism was a but-for cause of FTX’s existence[1] and therefore that it may have caused about $8B in economic damage due to FTX’s fraud (as well as potentially causing permanent damage to the reputation of effective altruism and longtermism as ideas). This example makes me feel it’s plausible that effective altruist community-building activities could be net-negative in impact,[2] and I wanted to explore some conjectures about what that plausibility would entail.
I recognize this is an emotionally charged issue, and to be clear my claim is not “EA community-building has been net-negative” but instead that that’s plausibly the case (i.e. something like >10% likely). I don’t have strong certainty that I’m right about that and I think a public case that disproved my plausibility claim would be quite valuable. I should also say that I have personally and professionally benefitted greatly from EA community building efforts (most saliently from efforts connected to the Center for Effective Altruism) and I sincerely appreciate and am indebted to that work.
Some claims that are related and perhaps vaguely isomorphic to the above which I think are probably true but may feel less strongly about are:
- To date, there has been a strong presumption among EAs that activities likely to significantly increase the number of people who explicitly identify as effective altruist (or otherwise increase their identification with the EA movement) are default worth funding. That presumption should be weakened.
- Social movements are likely to overvalue efforts to increase the power of their movement and undervalue their goals actually being accomplished, and EA is not immune to this failure mode.
- Leadership within social movements are likely to (consciously or unconsciously) overvalue measures that increase the leadership’s own control and influence and under-value measures that reduce it, which is a trap EA community-building efforts may have unintentionally fallen into.
- Pre-FTX, there was a reasonable assumption that expanding the EA movement was one of the most effective things a person could do, and the FTX catastrophe should significantly update our attitude towards that assumption.
- FTX should significantly update us on principles and strategies for EA community/movement-building and institutional structure, and there should be more public discourse on what such updates might be.
- EA is obligated to undertake institutional reforms to minimize the risk of creating an FTX-like problem in the future.
Here are some conjectures I’d make for potential implications of believing my plausibility claim:
- Make Impact Targets Public: Insofar as new evidence has emerged about the impact of EA community building (and/or insofar as incentives towards movement-building may map imperfectly onto real-world impact), it is more important to make public, numerical estimates of the goals of particular community-building grants/projects going forward and to attempt public estimation of actual impact (and connection to real-world ends) of at least some specific grants/projects conducted to date. Outside of GiveWell, I think this is something EA institutions (my own included) should be better about in general, but I think the case is particularly strong in the community-building context given the above.
- Separate Accounting for Community Building vs. Front-Line Spending: I have argued in the past that meta-level and object-level spending by EAs should be in some sense accounted for separately. I admit this idea is, at the moment, under-specified but one basic example would be “EAs/EA grant makers should say their “front-line” and “meta” (or “community building”) donation amounts as separate numbers (e.g. “I gave X to charity this year in total of which, Y was to EA front-line stuff, Z to EA community stuff, and W was non-EA stuff”). I think there may be intelligent principles to develop about how the amounts of EA front-line funding and meta-level funding should relate to one another, but I have less of a sense of what those principles might be than a belief that starting to account for them as separate types of activities in separate categories will be productive.
- Integrate Future Community Building More Closely with Front-Line Work: Insofar as it makes sense to have less of a default presumption towards the value of community building, a way of de-risking community building activities is to link them more closely to activities where the case for direct impact is stronger. For example, personally I hope for some of my kidney donation, challenge trial recruitment, and Rikers Debate Project work to have significant EA community-building upshots, even though that meta level is not those projects’ main goal or the metric I use to evaluate them. For what it’s worth, I think pursuing “double effect” strategies (e.g projects that simultaneously have near-termist and longtermist targets or animal welfare and forecasting-capacity targets) is underrated in current EA thinking. I also think connecting EA recruitment to direct work may mitigate certain risks of community building (e.g. the risks of creating an EA apparatchik class, recruiting “EAs” not sufficiently invested in having an actual impact, or competing with direct work for talent)
- Implement Carla Zoe Cremer’s Recommendations: Maybe I’m biased because we’re quoted together in some of the same articles but I’ve honestly been pretty surprised there has not been more public EA discussion post-FTX of adopting a number of Cremer's proposed institutional reforms, many of which seem to me obviously worth doing (e.g. whistleblowing protections). Some (such as democratizing funding decisions) are more complicated to implement, and I acknowledge the concern that these procedural measures create friction that could reduce the efficacy of EA organizations, but I think (a) minimizing unnecessary burden is a design challenge likely to yield fairly successful solutions and (b) FTX clearly strengthens the arguments in favor of bearing the cost of that friction. Also, insofar as she'd be willing (and some form of significant compensation is clearly merited), integrally engaging Cremer in whatever post-FTX EA institutional reform process emerges would be both directly helpful and a public show of good faith efforts at rectification.
- Consideration of a “Pulse” Approach to Funding EA Community Building: It may be the case that large EA funders should do time-limited pulses of funding towards EA community building goals or projects with the intention of building institutions that can sustain themselves off of separate funds in the future. The logic of this is: (a) insofar as EAs may be bad judges of the value of our own community building, requiring something appealing to external funders helps check that bias, (b) creating EA community institutions that must be attractive to outsiders to survive may avoid certain epistemic and political risks inherent to being too insular
- EA as a Method and not a Result: The concept of effective altruism (rationally attempting to do good) has broad consensus but particular conceptions may be parochial or clash with one another.[3] A “thinner” effective altruism that emphasizes EA as an idea akin to the scientific method rather than a totalizing identity or community may be less vulnerable to FTX-like mistakes.
- Develop Better Logic for Weighing Harms Caused by EA against EA Benefits: An EA logic that assumes resources available to EAs will be spent at (say) GiveWell benefit levels (which I take to be roughly $100/DALY or equivalent) but that resources available to others are spent at (say) US government valuations of a statistical life (I think roughly $100,000/DALY) seems to justify significant risks of incurring very sizable harms to the public if they are expected to yield additional resources for EA. Clearly, EA's obligations to avoid direct harms (or certain types of direct harms) are at least somewhat asymmetric to obligations/permissions to generate benefits. But at the same time, essentially any causal act will have some possibility of generating harm (which in the case of systemic change efforts can be quite significant), so a precautionary principle designed in an overly simplistic way would kneecap the ability of EAs to make the world better. I don't know the right answer to this challenge, but clearly "defer to common sense morality" has proven insufficient, and I think more intellectual work should be done.
I'm not at all certain about the conjectures/claims above, but I think it's important that EA deals with the intellectual implications of the FTX crisis, so I hope they can provoke a useful discussion.
- ^
Am basing this on reporting in Semafor and the New Yorker. To be clear, I'm not saying that once you assume Alameda/FTX's existence, the ideology of effective altruism necessarily made it more likely that those entities would commit fraud. But I do think it is unlikely they would have existed in the first place without the support of institutional EA.
- ^
To be clear, my claim is not "the impact of the FTX fraud incident plausibly outweighs benefits of EA community building efforts to date" (though that may be true and would be useful to publicly disprove if possible) but that the FTX fraud should demonstrate there are a range of harms we may have missed (which collectively could plausibly outweigh benefits) and that "investing in EA community building is self-evidently good" is a claim that needs to be reexamined.
- ^
I find the distinction between concept and conception to be helpful here. Effective altruism as a concept is broadly unobjectionable, but particular conceptions of what effective altruism means or ought entail involve thicker descriptions that can be subject to error or clash with one another. For example, is extending present-day human lifespans default good because human existence is generally valuable or bad because doing so tends to create greater animal suffering that outweighs the human satisfaction in the aggregate? I think people who consider the principles of effective altruism important to their thinking can reasonably come down on both sides of that question (though I, and I imagine the vast majority of EAs, believe the former). Moreover efforts to build a singular EA community around specific conceptions of effective altruism will almost certainly exclude other conceptions, and the friction of doing so may create political dynamics (and power-seeking behavior) that can lead to recklessness or other problems.
ok, an incomplete and quick response to the comments below (sry for typos). thanks to the kind person who alerted me to this discussion going on (still don't spend my time on your forum, so please do just pm me if you think I should respond to something)
1.
- regarding blaming Will or benefitting from the media attention
- i don't think Will is at fault alone, that would be ridiculous, I do think it would have been easy for him to make sure something is done, if only because he can delegate more easily than others (see below)
- my tweets are reaction to his tweets where he says he believes he was wrong to deprioritise measures
- given that he only says this after FTX collapsed, I'm saying, it's annoying that this had to happen before people think that institutional incentive setting needs to be further prioritised
- journalists keep wanting me to say this and I have had several interviews in which I argue against this simplifying position
2.
- i'm rather sick of hearing from EAs that i'm arguing in bad faith
- if I wanted to play nasty it wouldn't be hard (for anyone) to find attack lines, e.g. i have not spoken about my experience of sexual misconduct in EA and i continue to refuse to name names in respect to specific actions I criticise or continue to get passed information about, because I want to make sure the debate is not about individuals but about incentives/structures
- a note on me exploiting the moment of FTX to get media attention
- really?
- please join me in speaking with the public or with journalists, you'll see it's no fun at all doing it. i have a lot of things i'd rather be doing. many people will be able to confirm that i've tried to convince them to speak out too but i failed, likely because
- it's pretty risky because you end up having rather little control over how your quotes will be used, so you just hope to work with someone who cares, but every journalist has a pre-conception of course. it's also pretty time consuming with very little impact and then you have to deal with forum debates like this one. but hey if anyone want to join me, I encourage anyone who want to speak to the press to message me and I'll put you in touch.
- the reason I do it is because I think EA will 'work' just not in the way that many good people in it intend it to work
3.
- I indeed agree that these measures are not 'proven' to be good because of FTX
- i think they were a good idea before FTX and they continue to be good ideas
- they are not 'my' ideas, they are absolutely standard measures against big bureaucracy misconduct
- i don't want anyone to 'implement my recommentions' just because they're apparently mine (they are not), they are a far bigger project than a single person should handle and my hope was that the EA community would be full of people who'd maybe take it as inpiration and do something with it in their local context - it would then be their implmentation.
- i like the responses I had on twitter that were saying that FTX was in fact the first to do re-granting
- I agree and I thought that was great!
- in fact they were interested in funding a bunch of projects I care a lot about, including a whole section on 'epistemics'! I'm not sure it was done for the right reasons (maybe the incentive to spend money fast was also at play), and the re-granting was done without any academic rigor, data collection or metrics about how well it works (as far as I know), but I was still happy to see it
- I don't see how this invalidates the claim that re-granting is a good idea though
4.
- those who only want to know if my recommendations would have prevented this specific debacle are missing the point. someone may have blown the whistle, some transparency may have helped raise alarms, fewer people may have accepted the money, distributed funding may have meant more risk averse people would have had a say about whether to accept the money - or not. risk reduction is about reduction, not bringing it down to 0. so, do those measures, depending on how they're set up, reduce risk? yes I can see how they would, e.g. is it true that there were slack messages on some slack for leaders which warned against SBF, or is it true that several orgisations decided (but don't disclose why) against taking FTX funding https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/sam-bankman-fried-effective-altruism-and-the-question-of-complicity? I don't know enough about the people involved to say what each would have needed to be incentivised to be more public about their concerns. but do you not think it would have been useful knowledge to have available, e. g. for those EA members who got indiv grants and made plans with those grants?
even if institutional measures would not have prevented the FTX case, they are likely to catch a whole host of other risks in the future.
5.
-The big mistake that I am making is to not be an EA but to comment on EA. It makes me vulnerable to the attack of "your propositions are not concrete enough to fix our problems, so you must be doing it to get attention?" I am not here trying to fix your problems.
- I actually do think that outsiders are permitted to ask you to fix problems because your stated ambition is to do risk analysis for all of us, not just for effective altruism, but for, depending on what kind of EA you are, a whole category of sentient beings, including catagories as large as 'humanity' or 'future beings'. That means that even if I don't want to wear your brand, I can demand that you answer the questions of who gets to be in the positions to influence funding and why? And if it's not transparent, why is it not transparent? Is there a good reason for why it is not transparent? If I am your moral patient, you should tell me why your current organizational structures are more solid, more epistemically trustworthy than an alterntive ones.
6.
- i don't say anywhere that 'every procedure ought to be fully democratised' or 'every organisation has to have its own whistleblower protection scheme' - do i?
- *clearly* these are broad arguments, geered towards starting a discussion across EA, within EA institutions that need to be translated into concrete proposals and adjustments and assessments that meet each contextual need
- there's no need to dismiss the question of what procedures actually lead to the best epistemic outcomes by arguing that 'democratising everything' would bring bureaucracy (of course it would and no one is arguing for that anyway)
- for all the analyses of my tweets, please also look at the top page of the list of recommendations for reforms , it says something like "clearly this needs to be more detailed to be relevant but I'll only put in my free time if I have reason to believe it will be worth my time". There was no interest by Will and his team to follow up with any of it, so I left it at that (i had sent another email after the meeting with some more concrete steps necessary to at least get data, do some prototyping and reserach to test some of my claims about decentralised funding, and in which I offered I could provide advice and help out but that they should employ someone else to actually lead the project). Will said he was busy and would forward it to his team. I said 'please reach out if you have any more questions' and never heard from anyone again. It won't be hard to come up with concrete experiments/ideas for a specific context/organisation/task/team but I'm not sure why it would be productive for me to do that publically rather than at the request of a specific organisation/team. If you're an EA who cares about EA having those measures in place, please come up with those implemenation details for your community yourself.
7.
- I'd be very happy to discuss details of actually implementing some of these proposals for some particular contexts in which I believe it makes sense to try them. I'd be very happy to consult organizations that are trying to make steps in those directions. I'd be very happy to engage with and see a theoretical discussion about the actual state of the reserach.
But none of the discussions that I've seen so far are actually on the level of detail that would match the forefront of the experimental data and scholarly work that I've seen so far. Do you think scholars of democratic theory have not yet thought about a response to the typical 'but most people are stupid'? Everyone who dismisses decentralised reasoning as a viable and epistemically valuable approach, should at least engage with the arguments by political scientists (I've cited a bunch in previous publications/twitter, here again, e.g. Landemore, Hong&Page are a good start) who spent years on these questions (ie not me) and then argue on their level to bring the debate forward if they then still think they can.
8.
Jan, you seem particularly unhappy with me, reach out if you like, I'm happy to have a chat or answer some more questions.
I don't understand what this means, exactly.
If you're talking about the literal one ring from LOTR, then yeah EA not being trustworthy is vacuously true, since no human without mental immunity feats can avoid being corrupted.